Marco Hietala Of Nightwish: 'I Was A Metal Freak From The Be

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Dark Passion Play is symphonic metal band Nightwish’s seventh album and their first with new singer, Anette Olzon. It is also bass player Marco Hietala’s third album with the Finnish band since joining in 2002. The bassist/singer/writer brings a real groove to the orchestra-laden tracks washed with guitar and keyboards and Olzon’s sweeping soprano vocals.

Hietala, a bearded, blonde Finn who bears a remarkable resemblance to Black Label Society guitarist Zakk Wylde, has a deep understanding of his role within the band. Here he talks about what he does and what it was like working with Anette for the first time.

"Mita Kuulu," I said to him, the Finnish way of saying how are you? He muttered something incomprehensible to me and we jumped straight into our conversation. I asked him if he knew about Nightwish before joining.

Marco Hietala: Well, actually, I knew about the band because I had been playing in different groups before that. When the guys were starting out, they actually opened for one that I was playing with. I think that was in 1998; it’s a kind of band that I’m still with, it’s called Tarot. Then I was also playing bass in the band called Sinergy and we did five weeks of touring with Nightwish in central Europe; we were warming up for Nightwish at that time and that was actually in 2000 which is where I kind of really became aware that this thing is big and they got their sound together and everything.

And, in a way, I was familiar already, got to know the guys and talking with Tuomas (Holopainen; keyboards) was pretty much easy because, well, we kind of find out that we like the same books and movies and stuff.

But the guys called me in 2001 and that would I be interested to play the bass for the band? I was like, “Hey, alright, I’ll come over and let’s talk about this thing and see what happens.” And we just kind of agreed that, “OK, let’s give it like two weeks for thinking time” but I was pretty sure by the same thing that, “OK, I’m gonna do it.” And by the time we got into rehearsals, I was living in Helsinki at the time and I went to the train station and guys were there to pick me up from the train station. And we just immediately got to the gas station and bought loads of beer and went to the rehearsal room and started drinking and playing and it clicked.

UG: Tarot is the band you played in with your brother, Zachary?

Yeah, that is like my long-term commitment; already in the 80s it started out. So I’ve been there for a long time.

When you first started playing the bass, did you have a sense that you wanted to play a style of music that might combine classical with metal? Or did you not have any idea at all what type of music you might end up playing?

Yeah, for sure; I was like a metal freak already from the beginning. I was a kid, like eight years old, when my father’s friend put earphones on head and said, “Marco, listen to this one” and put on Deep Purple Fireball and I was blown away, yeah. I was blown away at that time and of course then I got into all the Rainbow when Dio was singing and one of my all-time favorites was “Gates of Babylon.” So, yeah, it’s kind of a symphonic metal style that’s been with me all the time.

So, what Purple were doing years ago when they played with classical orchestras and the way that Ritchie Blackmore sort of fused metal and classical is where it started for you?

Yeah; I like that shit. I still do. Of course, I listened to the other bands of the time like Sabbath and Judas Priest and stuff like that. Yeah, I’m into combining things with nice contrasts.

Before you joined Nightwish, you were working with female singer Kimberly Goss in Sinergy. Have you always been attracted to a female fronting a band?

Yeah, but I never really got into any of the bands that had them like before. And I was slightly put off with Nightwish for the first, let’s say two albums, when Tarja was really doing the opera style. I could not buy that one. But when she started to get like more a little bit down to earth like for instance, in some songs in Wishmaster; those are the kind of things that I found out that I liked them a lot.

So, before Wishmaster, you thought the band’s approach was a little bit pompous sounding?

Well, I mean the vocal style, if you think about it, like if you really use the operatic techniques all the time, it’s not really … it’s technical, it’s not passionate.

What was it like working with Tarja Turunen?

Well, working with Tarja at first was really easy; she was at least at the time, she was down to earth like a Finnish country girl and we were Finnish country boys. So, pretty easy. I still think that basically what led to the breakup was she listened to some really bad advice from her husband and ended up thinking she as herself is way too valuable compared to us. And they can dictate the rules however; it wasn’t that way. We didn’t put up with it and that’s it.

What was that process like in replacing Tarja? Did you think it was going to be an impossible task or did you feel secure that you could find someone pretty easily?

It was really funny because I think we got over 2,000 demoes and we basically listened to all of them. I think I listened to something like 700 myself. What I found out was there were like a lot of potential singers, a lot of good singers, but people who were still wet behind the ears. So, in order to grow into the band they would need like one or two albums and probably would have done well after that. But of course we wanted to have somebody who would have the sounds down immediately.

And this is how we ended up with Anette because she sounds like she had her thing down; she had a lot of energy to pull out and a high voice that has this really good like a tone of her own.

What were some of the early recording sessions like with Anette? Was it a simple thing to work her into the framework of the band?

We basically had like instrumental versions of the old album and she sang over them. Then we kind of invited her over to Finland to a rehearsal room and did some of those live and could hear that, “OK, she can do it.” And then we moved with like a few of the demoes that we’ve done for the upcoming album which eventually became Dark Passion Play and she sang those over. We were pleased.

"I’m just like one-fifth of the band but I do tend to affect a lot how something sounds."

So, when she was actually in the studio and the record button was pushed, you knew that you had made the right decision in bringing her into Nightwish?

Pretty much, yeah. Well, I guess we had a few songs from the new stuff and she went over them and we were really pleased. She could keep the tone, have the strength and have the sensitivity and all those things in between and everything. So, yeah.

And then logically, let’s talk about how the tracks themselves were recorded. The first single from Dark Passion Play was “Eva,” a symphonic ballad with strings and piano and horns. There is a brilliant modulation following the solo and every aspect of the instrumentation screams epic. In fact, the classical instruments are recorded completely separate from the guitars and drums, correct?

Well, the studio process for “Eva” and for the whole album was, when we still didn’t have a singer, we still spent two months in the summer of 2006, going over the stuff, rehearsing it and everything and discussing about what kinds of like orchestral stuff we would like to have on it. Even though mainly Tuomas, of course, he writes the music and all the lyrics, (there was) some musical input from me and Emppu, the guitar player, as well. After some while after that, we got into the studio and started recording things. You know what basic studio work is: You do like bottom line where you try to play as much as you can with the whole and then you’re starting to go over bass tracks and guitar tracks and stuff; dubbing and doing like new stuff, keyboard stuff.

And then the guys go to this orchestra and Abbey Road Studios for it in London. I was pretty pissed because I had to miss it; I was doing some vocal arranging and producing for Amorphis, if you know the band? That thing, it got stretched and we had to book four more days and everything so in the end, I missed the Abbey Road because of that.

But from the guys I heard that it was pretty really amazing to hear like your stuff by played by real, real goddamned professionals!

Still, about the studio thing as well, we had basically all the orchestral stuff recorded before we actually took Anette then into the studio to record the whole album. And of course, I think it was something that she was a little bit scared but still managed to do a really good job. And by the time we get to the next one and everything, I think she’ll be more involved in the whole like thing when we rehearse and arrange the whole stuff together. This time, she didn’t really have a chance for it.

So, in getting back to an earlier question, when Anette was in the studio singing along to “Eva,” all the orchestral instruments were already recorded on the track? That could certainly have been a bit daunting for a newcomer.

Yeah, I think so. If you think about, for instance, “Eva,” we did a demo version Tuomas had the lyrics and the melody down, so when we were rehearsing in 2006 and demoing the stuff, I actually just sang the whole thing over; like an octave lower. And we just had figure out, “OK, so how is it going to sound when a girl is gonna sing it?”

You’ve done a lot of singing in Nightwish and your other bands. Do you ever miss or mind not being the lead singer in a band?

No, I actually don’t mind; this gives me quite a lot of freedom just to, not worry about like maintaining the voice and everything when you do just parts of the show. So, I find it like a relaxing thing to do and then again, I really love playing bass and having the sound that I have with some slightly distorted edge and all that. For me, it’s really like a good slot to me.

And could you speak a little more about your bass playing and your sound? There are so many different tonalities on the record; for instance on “Cadence Of Her Last Breath,” the sound of the bass fits into the track perfectly and the part is also a great complement to the rhythm track. When you’re creating your parts, do you think at all how Anette’s voice will lay on top of it? Does the process go that deeply with you?

(Brief hesitation) Ummm, well, I kinda like to think about it as a whole, like a whole thing. When you get a song down, you know the melodies and you know what’s going to happen vocally and everything, it’s like you tend to find the places where you can fill in a little bit if it’s motivated (called for). And mostly I like to play pretty straight.

You do play pretty simply.

Yeah, ‘cause well, I’m an old school guy; I really like work from guys like Geezer Butler and Bob Daisley and guys like that. And I like to keep really a straight bottom and then when you get some space, there’s some value if you create something interesting in it. Then I go and find some stuff to do because well, I’ve basically got the technique down for it and everything. But usually, I do like to play straight. And from my point of view, it’s a thing if I can make the band groovier and heavier at the same time, it’s all for the best for it. That is how I think about it. I mean, I’m just like one-fifth of the band but I do tend to affect a lot how something sounds. So, yeah, I think about it a lot.

Do you and Emppu actually sit down together and think about parts? Would you say to him, “Hey, man, what is that you’re playing? I’ll double that riff with you.”

That is exactly what we’ve done; and also like discussing about keyboards, drums … “OK, you’re gonna hit in the front of one on this one but I’m gonna go straight in. How does it sound?” And blah blah, stuff like that. Yeah, we do get into the details.

Because there is obviously so much music going on in a lot of these tracks, you really do have to think about what you’re going to play. And finding the right tone and the right places to put the part could add up to a pretty difficult situation.

Yeah, and that is actually one of the most difficult things is that when you have this powerhouse of heavy metal drums, guitars, bass, and some keyboards and stuff like that, is when you start to figure out what to do with (the) orchestra. Actually, there’s a plan what to do with (the) orchestra or choir or something like that, you have to kind of keep that plan in mind in order to not overdo some parts and then go wild in some parts. And that really needs thinkin’ about sometimes.

What was the type of bass and amp setup you used on the album?

I’ve got these couple Warwick neck-through Infinitys (2000) which I really like; I’ve also got this (Warwick) Vampyre which is really, really, really nice. But I use the Infinitys on the album because they’re somehow, how can I say, they really fit to my hand. The neck is kind of thin and long and I just like the sound of the whole thing because somehow it’s got this real wooden closeness to it. And you’ve got the f-holes so basically the body is hollow at the bottom and at the top and then you’ve got the neck going through it. It gives it a personal distinction there.

Amplifiers, what I use live, that I also got, are Warwick Pro Tube amps. 1.0 if I remember right (presumably, Marco means IX); then I got a couple of cabinets (Warwick) which has like eight speakers (probably referring to two 410 cabinets with 4x10 configuration in each).

I think the most important part of my sound is a sense of like guitar distortion but at really like a low level of things so that it starts to crunch a little bit but not too much. Tht is one of the essentials of the things I use live and in the studio.

Are you creating that with a pedal?

It is a SansAmp GT1 or a GT2; I can’t remember (it is a Tech 21 GT2). It’s on there all the time. Like I said, the distortion is not much; I put the knob so it starts to crunch a little bit. When you play hard enough, it really distorts well; and when you play softer parts, you can really hear the thing.

“For the Heart I Once Had” has another great bass pumping 1/8th note part. Emppu’s guitar solo is so lyrical on this one.

Yeah, I agree. From my point of view if we talk about the guitar work that Emppu does, the guy really has an extreme sense of melody a lot of times. And that is something which I really like because he’s got the sense of what’s happening beneath him and then he goes there and he hits the right notes. What I mean is, most of us have had some musical schooling but we are not like professional studio virtuosos or anything like that. We’re all pretty much self-educated guys and for us to have that kind of an understanding is really great.

What you’ve just mentioned really kind of unlocks the secret of the band – at the heart of everything you do, there exists a really good song. A Nightwish song isn’t dependent on the embroideries – the orchestra and choirs and pianos and big arrangements. Rather, the song is made better with these elements.

I agree; it’s not like we use orchestra to add on anything that the song actually missed. It’s one part of the sound when we’re just maybe too ambitious but we really try and make things big enough to move worlds. And there’s an ambition in the band which is why basically the sound has come to be.

“The Islander” is one that you wrote and sang and it reveals another side of the band. Are you familiar with Procol Harum’s song, “Salty Dog?” The two songs are completely different in style but they deal with the same subject – the vast sea and distant shores.

I get you; I know the song and I’ve been listening to it from now and then and I think it’s a great one. But the whole composition is totally different but I get what you mean that it has imaginary things and visions about the sea.

Where does that fascination come from? Do they have beaches in Finland?

We’ve got some coastlines but Finland is a pretty watery country; we’ve got a helluva lot of lakes. So, water fascination might come out of there somehow but of course I know Tuomas is probably slightly obsessed about (the) sea and all these things because he wanted to be a marine biologist when he was still studying at school.

"Dark Passion Play is pretty heavy to take on in one listen."

Where did that whole feel of the arrangement come from with the acoustic guitars and that sea chantey-type thing?

I just had this acoustic riff and I also had the verses and I figure this is gonna make a song if I find the right chorus. Every time I tried a chorus bit, it didn’t feel like it fit. Then I thought, “OK, what if I go down?” And make it more mellow and then it started working.” The orchestral arrangement was due to Mr. Pip Williams from UK.

I had the demo myself in an acoustic format and I had the rhythm parts down; I did some like machine drum work which is pretty much like the thing is right now with just the ethnic drums and everything; no cymbals or anything. And I just played it to the guys one time when we were together and Tuomas was like, “Hey, man, this is great.” I gave the demo to him and well, we just ended up recording it. I had the working lyrics on that song where I sang a couple of verses and the chorus but he heard the song and he said, “I really think I would like to write this thing about the lonely lighthouse.” And I was like, “Yeah, that fits.”

Are you also playing the acoustic on that song?

Yeah; we’ve done it all the nights live. I mean, we skip “Islander” during festival season, during summer festivals, because it’s a technical hassle for all the instruments. But for the whole tour, when we are doing our own show, when guys have time to set up, we’ve been doing it every night.

You really play excellent rhythm guitar for a bass player.

That is where I started from but then again, I’m really, like I said, I’m also a Finnish country boy like from middle parts of Finland. I started out as an acoustic guitar player but if you wanna play in a band, that’s not really something that’s gonna get you far from a village where there’s about 2,000 people. And I ended up playing bass and doing the vocals.

And the way that Anette accompanies you and acts as a backing vocal to your lead vocal is very cool.

Yeah, it’s a good piece, and then when the guys wanted to do a video out of that, I was really pleased. And by the time we got to see how it came out, I was really like blown away. We had done like 13,000 people for a show in Switzerland and had a few drinks and the next morning you get, “OK, now we get the raw version (the real truth) in the emails so let’s check it out.” And I had tears in my eyes.

The opposite end of that in terms of huge arrangement and multiple parts is the album’s opening track, “The Poet and the Pendulum.” That song not only opens the record but it opens the audience to Anette’s voice for the first time and introduces various musical elements as well.

At first, we just thought that song would make a cool opening when everybody else takes a piece that would be for radio play or single or something like that; tight and compact. But we just figured, “Let’s do something that really introduces the whole landscape of the thing that we are in.” I don’t think we even realized how much it would be true. After we ourselves heard the final mixes and masters, (it was like), “OK, this actually happened that this thing really introduces you into the whole wide-scape of the things that’s happened on the album.”

Does anybody in the band actually listen seriously to classical music? Sibelius is a native Finnish composer and there are others.

I think we all come from musically active families; my father is a real fan of old jazz; my parents they do have classical records and I’ve heard them when I was young. And these things, they tend to stay with you if you find some pieces (that you like). For instance, Sibelius’ Finlandia is pretty impressive and stuff like that; the soundscapes they stay with you. I’m really happy that we’re in a situation where we can play with that.

I’ve asked this question before of musicians from Finland and Sweden and that part of Europe – why do these countries produce music that is so dramatic and so dark? Is it the same reason that California – with the sun and the sea – produced the Beach Boys? Is the explanation that simple and that connected to the landscape?

That is something that we wondered ourselves; it has to do something with the national mindset that you do things in this kind of dark way. But then again, I mean, we Finnish as people, we’re not that bleak; we’re slightly reserved, that’s true, but also the national humor and everything tends to be slightly dark. We find that doing things in minor instead of major is somehow more expressive; that you can actually break down the music and the walls of the harmony really a lot more than what you can do with major.

We touched before on the heart of Nightwish’s music and that was good songs. But it’s more than that – the music is smart without sounding overbearing; it challenged the listener. The band is like an acquired taste – it requires multiple listenings to really understand everything that is going on.

That is something I agree on. For instance, Dark Passion Play is pretty heavy to take on in one listen. And to be honest, in the process of making and listening to it multiple times, I kind of found myself into it. Even though we had done real rehearsing for a long time, but still, getting it down, getting all the instruments, the orchestras, the choirs, getting vocals and everything, it grew onto me. And even though I had a great trust for the whole project, even when we started it and I heard some demo songs from Tuomas and he heard mine, we had this kind of trust, “OK, we’re gonna build this into something really good.” But then again, the end always seems to surpass the expectations.

You knew, then, that your audience would be challenged as listeners to take in the entire experience of the record. I interviewed John McLaughlin once and he said he makes his audience work and doesn’t want to make the music easy to listen to.

Yeah, that’s true; it really is like a compilation when you do the album and you do the music, you want it to be effective. You want to make people feel things that they didn’t expect for themselves to feel; to get them to surprise them into tears or get them wild or whatever. That way it means you are actually doing something that matters; it can move people.

Have you thought at all about a new album?

Yeah, I know that Tuomas has some songs; I’ve got some stuff that when we get off of tour, I should demo at home. We’d like to start exchanging some CDs and stuff and see what comes out of it.

And something you referred to earlier, that this would be Anette’s second album with Nightwish and that you think her involvement will be much greater.

Yeah, that is true. This time around we were just trying to find out where we were in the woods so to speak because we really didn’t know that. From the demos we had some inclination about what kind of ranges and what kind of keys we would use for the songs and all that. But this time, it’ll be a lot easier; we can walk her straight to the business when we start out.

Interview by Steven Rosen